NO! (Don't shoot me in the face! The Punisher Topic)

[vynsane]

how about instead of reading remenders bad stuff and bitching about it, read his good stuff like 'fear agent'?

[Bizarro The Grin]

bETTER YET, LET'S FOCUS ON HIS DAD'S FINE, TIGHT ASS AND THE WAY IT HUGS MY BIG, BLACK DICK.

[Diabolical]

I saw that story about Remender thinking so highly of his Punisher run.
What a tool.

The issues of War Journal he co-wrote with Fraction sucked, but his own Punisher run started really strong. He handled Frank existing within the Marvel Universe far better than Fraction ever did, with Frank methodically attacking Norman Osborn's illegal activities when a direct attack failed. He even gave Frank a good sidekick with Henry (where his potential great backstory was poorly executed). The wheels fell really off when the Hood started resurrecting dead D-listers. And Frank's family.

The big slap in the face came just before the steel-toed kick in the balls:
Wolverine's retarded kid does what nobody else could: He actually killed Frank Castle.
Then Franken-Castle happened.
Franken-Castle will go down in Punisher history along side Angel Punisher and Black Punisher.

When that shitfest was over in the Franken-Castle #21, we got a really good six pages that seemed to reintroduce the Punisher we know and love, which acted as a prologue to In The Blood.
And with In The Blood, Remender seemed to return to what made his initial issues The Punisher great, despite throwing me for a loop and making me doubt him a few times (especially with the whole Maria thing), but overall I thought he ended his Punisher run on a high note.

I look forward to Greg Rucka's run. The guy seems to have an understanding of the character and knows not to fuck with it for the sake of fucking with it.

[Diabolical]

Punisher MAX on the other hand has been pretty good...now that its finally back.
Until recently I wasn't convinced this Punisher MAX was the same as the Ennis Punisher MAX universe, as they feel very different at times. Ennis' felt like the real world, where Aaron's feels like the Marvel universe without superheroes.
In the latest issue, we get some flashbacks that seem to jive with the Born mini-series and see what happened between the panels of the final issue.

I do have some problems with MAX though:
I still don't like Steve Dillon's art on a MAX title. It makes it feel like the old Marvel Knights days, but with cussin'.
I'm still not convinced bringing Kingpin and Bullseye into the MAX world is the best idea, but I can accept Kingpin more than I can Bullseye.
The Bullseye arc seemed to take 5 issues to get to one single point - what Bullseye figures out Frank's deep, dark secret:
SPOILERS (via someone scanning and enlarging Bullseye's unreadable whisper):
Frank told Maria "I want a divorce" right before the shooting began in Central Park.
END SPOILERS

Complaints aside, I still like the MAX Punisher better than the 616 Punisher.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I don't buy into Aaron's revelation of what Bullseye figured out what Frank said to Maria. That doesn't mean that I don't think Aaron believes it and that it won't be part of the story hereafter, I just don't believe that's what the character of the Punisher is. I don't even know if thats what Ennis intended the character to be in the MAX universe. Ennis has done a lot more to flesh out the character (with series like Born, and the Tyger one shot among others) than any other writer. And it lets us know while the Central Park incident was the main event creating the Punisher, it wasn't the ONLY thing. I think the latest revelation just stirs up drama in an unnecessary origin story. To create an extra facet and make the character more "complicated". Of course, it could be a diversion and Frank didn't say anything of the sort (although he's mighty distraught over something he didn't say, if thats the case). But I think its more likely Aaron just wants to add a layer of flawed to an already flawed character to make him more "real". I just think its the wrong layer.

I think a lot of writers like to approach the Punisher as a loony. A sociopath. And I personally think that kinda cheapens him and leaves him an "out" for doing what he does. And some writers try to go too far in the other direction, and get focused on the costume and the 'comic-book'iness of it. They try to figure out how to make him an almost heroic character, and that doesn't work either.

[anarky]

Punisher should be like Batman with special forces training and without the ethics. And, as a side effect of his lifestyle and lack of mask, no secret identity.

[Rollo Tomassi]

And without the multi-billion dollar bankroll and R&D research at his beck and call.

[anarky]

Yeah, but he does (sometimes) have Micro, and he keeps the money he gets from mobsters and dealers, seeing as how he has no ethics.

How much do you reckon the Punisher is worth, come to think of it? I'm sure he's more spartan now than when I was reading it, but he still shouldn't be hurting for cash. At all.

[Rollo Tomassi]

You know, some writers have him taking the cash, and some writers have him burning it because its "Drug money". I've always seen him as more pragmatic and keeping the cash. I don't even see him as having a flair for the ironic and "using their own money to help destroy them". I like it that he'd just look at it for what it is. Cash to buy weapons to win his war on crime. Anything else is just sentimental bullshit. It's the same reason I think he'd recover weapons the thugs had been using when he capped them if he had the time to do so. It would just be to increase his arsenal and have more weapons caches around the city.

[anarky]

Okay, I've got to say, trying to list the Punisher comics necessary for the MAX run is pretty confounding. More than a little. See if you fellas can help me out.

It looks like we start with the Marvel Knights Punisher, which is written by Ennis, though I think it might slightly tie into the MU more than when it becomes MAX. Six volumes total, which isn't the entire series as one story arc by another writer is never collected.

Then it becomes Punisher MAX. Thirteen volumes total (and they look to be on the pricey side, given the number of included issues). Ennis writes the first ten volumes. The other three are by different writers, and, though collected as Punisher MAX, the title was renamed Punisher: Frank Castle. There are two spinoffs, both collected, both by Ennis, called Punisher Presents Barracuda and Punisher: Born.

Then it becomes PunisherMAX, eliminating that pesky space and making bookshelves look schizophrenic. Different art style, currently written by Jason "Good Writer, Lousy Giver of Writing Advice" Aaron. Looks like an emphasis on more "grounded" versions of MU Punisher villains, like Bullseye and Kingpin. One volume thus far. Likely more to follow.

And then Amazon has something called "Punisher MAX: Naked Kills." One review mentions it following Ennis' run, but there's no volume number or anything. Is this a spinoff? Worth reading?

Here's the list I've gotten so far of the main series (under whatever name) and spinoffs by Ennis. What else is essential reading for the MAX version of Mr. Castle?

Punisher (Marvel Knights) Vol. 1: Welcome Back, Frank
Punisher (Marvel Knights) Vol. 2: Army of One
Punisher (Marvel Knights) Vol. 3: Business as Usual
Punisher (Marvel Knights) Vol. 4: Full Auto
Punisher (Marvel Knights) Vol. 5: Streets of Laredo
Punisher (Marvel Knights) Vol. 6: Confederacy of Dunces
Punisher MAX Vol. 1: In the Beginning
Punisher MAX Vol. 2: Kitchen Irish
Punisher MAX Vol. 3: Mother Russia
Punisher MAX Vol. 4: Up Is Down and Black Is White
Punisher MAX Vol. 5: The Slavers
Punisher MAX Vol. 6: Barracuda
Punisher MAX Vol. 7: Man of Stone
Punisher MAX Vol. 8: Widowmaker
Punisher MAX Vol. 9: Long Cold Dark
Punisher MAX Vol. 10: Valley Forge, Valley Forge
Punisher MAX Vol. 11: Girls in White Dresses
Punisher MAX Vol. 12: Six Hours to Kill
Punisher MAX Vol. 13: Welcome to the Bayou
PunisherMAX Vol. 1: Kingpin
The Punisher Presents Barracuda
Punisher: Born

That's pretty damned hefty. But think of the good you'll be doing Marvel by helping me out. That's a shit ton of comics from a publisher I swore off after they made their flagship hero strike a deal with the devil because a divorce would make him "old."

[Rollo Tomassi]

There were several one-shots and a couple of "annuals" (which were just oneshots with a fancy name) released under the MAX banner as well. At least a dozen by my fuzzy recollection. Some of those are probably what's in that other Trade. Some of the oneshots were decent, but some of them hardly had Frank in them at all. I don't think you need to make them a priority, but check them out eventually.

I seem to recall one Trade called 'First to Last' that collects The Tyger, The Cell, and The End. THAT is worth reading for sure. The Cell is probably the single greatest Punisher story ever.

[anarky]

Damn, you tell me that, and I see that First to Last is inexplicably out of print and Amazon's asking $40+ for both new and used.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Ebay has several 'Buy It Now' auctions for considerably less than that.

[Diabolical]

Man, looking at that list of MAX stories makes me want to go reread them all.
There is some really great stuff there.

Marvel Knights is 100% 616.
There is one more Marvel Knights trade - Punisher: War Zone, which Ennis did in 2009, and is set firmly in Ennis' 616 version. It's a sequel of sorts to Welcome Back, Frank, but takes place after the end of the MK run (basically making it Volume 7).

If you want to read chronologically, then The Tyger from First to Last would be the start, then jump to Born, which takes place in Vietnam.

As for the rest in First to Last , The End doesn't necessarily take place in continuity and The Cell is a bit ambiguous as to when exactly it takes place, but both are great stories. Some have speculated that The End is the sequel to The Cell.

I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure The Punisher Presents: Barracuda takes place just before Volume 9 (The Long, Cold Dark).

MAX Volumes 11, 12 and 13 are all post-Ennis and not so great.

Naked Kills is a collection of one-shots: BUTTERFLY, GET CASTLE, NAKED KILL and PUNISHER MAX ANNUAL 2007. And all were pretty shitty.

PunisherMax is on the third arc (Frank) right now. Kingpin was first, with Bullseye out soon. This series seems to be in the MAX world Ennis established, but feel like MK with swearing.

[anarky]

Okay, so the Punisher MAX Universe comes out of nowhere with the start of that series? I always thought it continued the Marvel Knights run, only cutting out the 616 references. I'm assuming that with Ennis at the helm it should be good, even if less "graphic," right?

(And ain't it funny how everyone calls the main MU "616" now because a bunch of hardcore nerds starting using it online and it caught on? Twenty years ago, no one knew what the hell that was, and the term is almost thirty years old.)